I was pleasantly surprised today when I found out that Our Sword was mentioned at the top of the list for Adventist Today's March 2009 Adventist blog roundup! Many thanks to AToday for taking notice. The article specifically links to the "Adventist/Catholic Dialogue on Death" post, which you can read by clicking here.
Showing posts with label State of the Dead. Show all posts
Showing posts with label State of the Dead. Show all posts
Sunday, April 5, 2009
Wednesday, March 18, 2009
Adventist/Catholic Dialogue On Death
The following is a very interesting and enjoyable dialogue between myself and a Catholic brother who also has a blog. The original content is from a post entitled "Who Continued Creating" regarding Christ's death. As you'll see, we delve into some extremely fascinating topics regarding the theological ramifications that one's belief concerning the state-of-the-dead has on one's view of Christ's death and resurrection. Enjoy!
Thomas' Original Comment-
"Interestingly, in your brief thoughts laid out here, you have also just answered the question of how the dead can be conscious after death. When we die perhaps we slip into that realm where time no longer has a grasp on us. It could be argued that the dead can see the Resurrection already before them - seemingly in a moment they have experienced new life - though to us who are left behind here on earth, time marches on. It is a matter of perspective.
The dead are outside of time and can see time from a new perspective. This is why Jesus could tell the thief, "Today you will be with me in paradise."
Perhaps the dead can view time from the outside looking in - sort of a "window" on time. They can see us, and can know our needs and wants. God can allow this, as He is the Master of all time and space. This is how the dead are able to offer our prayers to God like incense, as in the Book of Revelation. This is why Moses and Elijah could appear with Jesus in the Transfiguration - God can allow them to step through the window of time.
This is also why Jesus could tell the parable of the rich man who wished to warn his brothers of their impending doom. Why would Jesus tell a parable that reflects a FALSE view of death? It makes much more sense that Jesus would reflect TRUTH in his teachings. If the dead man could see his brothers and be conscious of them, then there must be some time/space alteration when we die.
If the dead can offer our prayers, or can appear with Jesus beyond the grave, or experience "paradise" as though it is "today," then time and space must be different when we are dead.
Just as Jesus, after death, could be both "asleep in death" and yet remain the sustainer of creation, so too can those who have died be both asleep and alive in Christ. God is the God of the living not the dead. So who are we to say what that new life is like?
I understand that your immediate response will be, "Just read what I have already posted on this subject." ...Well, I have read that post. But what I am saying is that you are still left with your question above: How can Jesus be "asleep" and yet remain the Sustainer of Creation? If Jesus truly experienced death (which I believe He did) then we must explain death in different terms than your Adventist church seems to explain it. Something is wrong with a "sleeping" death if it means that Jesus ceases to be who He is. However, if we allow that death itself entails a time/space alteration then we have opened up the necessity to re-interpret what you posted about death previously. Perhaps the "sleep" theory relies to heavily on how we perceive time here on earth and doesn't take into consideration God's view of time, and our sharing of God's life after death."
My Initial Response -
"Our difference is this: I don't believe we will ever be outside of time, as God is. If we were outside of time after death, we would then be omnipresent, for we could then be all places at once in the view of those "within time" if we were no longer restricted by time.
This is not my only reason, though, for believing that those attributes belong to God alone. There are also the passages in Isaiah which speak of the redeemed gathering together from new moon to new moon and from sabbath to sabbath to worship God...which to me shows that we, as created beings, are always within the confines of time and space.
But regardless of that fact, for the one who dies and ceases to exist, or sleeps in the grave, as some like to say, it will be as a split second before we open our eyes in the resurrection. They will not be conscious of any passage of time. As you said, it is only to those of us who remain here on earth that it seems like they have been gone for so long.
I don't find any Scriptural evidence for praying to anyone other than God. He is omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent...surely He does not need help hearing or answering the prayers. On the contrary, the Bible is clear that God Himself always hears our prayers.
One important thing to remember about parables is that they are designed primarily to teach one truth. If we read into them and try to make doctrines of all the various parts and place meaning where none is intended, we "wrest the Scriptures to our own destruction."
The rich man and Lazarus was certainly not told by Jesus with the intention of explaining what happens when we die. I may write a post on this parable, as it is an interesting one.
Certainly all the saved aren't in Abraham's chest cavity...and certainly they cannot look over and see wicked people burning in agony, let alone have conversations with them...certainly a single drop of water on a burning man's tongue would be of no comfort...and probably most importantly, we cannot ignore the hundreds of Bible verses which show that the dead are "sleeping in their graves", "know nothing", "all their thoughts, love, hate, etc have perished", the "dead don't praise God", the dead "wait in the grave until the resurrection", the dead "have no more portion in anything done under the sun", etc. etc.
To arrive at a correct understanding of any Bible truth, we must get all the Bible passages on the subject, and look at the big picture...when we do that, things become very clear, and parables such as the rich man and Lazarus can be seen for their true meaning.
For me the answer to the question of how Jesus can be in the grave and yet be the sustainer of all things is simple...He is God. :-)
With God all things are possible.
If there is one thing that the state of the dead doctrine relies too heavily on, it is Bible texts. For I must admit...our human minds can come up with all kinds of neat ideas about what happens when you die, but if we listen to the plethora of Bible verses on the subject, we must come to the conclusion that the dead are in the grave until the resurrection.
I do enjoy reading about your point of view, though. Keep 'em coming. :-)"
Thomas' Second Comment -
""I don't find any Scriptural evidence for praying to anyone other than God. He is omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent...surely He does not need help hearing or answering the prayers."
Just to clarify...when Catholics "pray" to saints, we ask the saints to pray on our behalf - to pray WITH us - we do not pray TO the saints. It is no different than asking any living fellow Christian to pray with you. If God hears all of our prayers, then why would you ask fellow Christians (living or dead) to pray with you? Simple, because it is not a matter going to other Christians INSTEAD of God, rather it is going to God WITH other Christians - a heavenly prayer circle.
My main point is this: I am certain you have many Biblical texts that back up your conclusion about the dead being unconscious or non-existent...but just as you pointed out certain elements of Scripture (in the parables, for instance) should not be taken too literally, I too would say that things like "from sabbath to sabbath" and "from new moon to new moon" should not be taken as literal markings of time. They could be metaphors. And perhaps "sleep" does not mean that the dead are REALLY unconscious from their own perspective, but rather they are only "asleep" from OUR perspective. Those of us who are left here in this life experience their death as a "going to sleep." The Bible uses this analogy to describe a certain perspective of death. But even Jesus said that God is the God of the LIVING, when referring to the Patriarchs. The Patriarchs are dead, yet they are also alive. It depends on your perspective.
All of this is very interesting, but it is just you and I going round and round about who is interpreting correctly. When it comes down to it, we won't convince each other based on the "Bible Alone." We each have a different way of interpreting the Bible, and it is that interpretation and not the BIBLE that is the question. It is a matter of two competing "systems" of interpretation. This is why I like to study the history of these doctrines to discover whether they can be traced to ancient sources.
Anyway, you are still left with a problem...Either Jesus really did die and experienced an unconscious death (as you define death) and so ceased to be the Sustainer of Creation, or He did not really die, He experienced something other than death, remaining conscious, and so his passion was a farce in that respect."
Thomas' Third Comment -
"Allow me to clarify...
To begin with, let us say that you are correct. Let's assume that "death" is a state of unconsciousness. Let's put aside any other doctrinal differences you and I might have about saints or time/space awareness or anything else, and let's just say that "death" is exactly what Adventists claim it to be...When someone experiences death they go unconscious (or cease to exist...or however you understand that to be). Death means that the person ceases to be a conscious being.
Now we are faced with passages such as this..."...he humbled himself and became obedient to death — even death on a cross!" (Philippians 2:8)It would seem that being "obedient to death" would mean to subject oneself to the reality of death. And the reality of death is that it is an unconscious state, or to be put out of existence altogether. To say otherwise is to say that Jesus was NOT obedient to death. He did not really "die."
If Jesus is God (which I assume you believe in the doctrine of the Trinity), and Jesus really did die which the Scriptures say He did, then we must say that God ceased to be God when Jesus died... That is, if death means what you say it means, then when Jesus died the Son of God stopped being God and went dormant or out of existence completely.
That pretty much sums up your initial post. You have stated the dilemma that is present in the Adventist position. But rather than question the doctrine itself you defend your position by simply saying, "Well, all things are possible with God."
So what does that mean?
Does it mean that Jesus did not experience death the same way that you and I do? Well then, that means that the Scripture is false when it says that Jesus was "obedient to death." It means that Jesus did NOT experience death at all. He experienced something different than death - some altered version of death. He was not obedient to death, but obedient to some pseudo-death - He did not follow through in His obedience nor did He experience the death that He came to conquer. How could He conquer that which He never faced?
This possible "alternative version" of death may in theory preserve Jesus' divinity, but it creates a huge problem for the Adventist position. It calls into question the reality of Jesus' Passion and death...
Either way, this one doctrine seems to conflict with the bigger issue of the person Jesus, the Son of God, and what His life and death means to us. When that happens, when a core precept of Christianity is challenged by a minor doctrine, it seems the wise thing to do would be to explore a different way of understanding your notion of death.
Please understand that I am not attacking the Bible in any of this. You and I both use the Bible to arrive at our conclusions. But the Bible can be interpreted to mean a great many things. What matters is whether it is being interpreted correctly. You yourself admit that some passages should be interpreted literally and other figuratively (like Jesus' parables, for instance). The problem is that many people disagree on how that should be - what is literal and what is not. If you believe that the Adventist Church has cornered the market on biblical interpretation it is no different than when any other church claims to do the same thing...including the Catholic Church, I might add. We ALL believe that we "got it right." And we believe we got there with biblical passages to back it up. I don't blame you for that.
So we could go round and round over who is right or wrong...but it is all based on interpretation, and these things can differ. The only reason I posted is to point out that your original post is right on the money about the Adventist problem with death. It seems to contradict Christianity itself. It seems to be a glaring problem with Adventism. I would explore this doctrine further if I were you and see who first proposed it, see if it is an ancient Christian belief or a modern invention. I'm sure the Scriptures seem to back it up, but when the doctrine seems to challenge Jesus' Sonship or the reality of His death that would be a huge red flag to me."
My Second Response -
"In regard to the first of your two recent replies, I just want to clarify my position about the Scriptures.
"but just as you pointed out certain elements of Scripture (in the parables, for instance) should not be taken too literally"
When I say that parts of Scripture should not be taken literally, I mean a very narrow portion of Scriptures...mainly parables. I think it is very dangerous to take this fact further than absolutely necessary...in other words, I believe Scriptures should be taken literally unless there is an obvious reason not to. So, the majority of Scripture should, in my view, be taken quite literally.
So I cannot take the numerous Scriptures referencing death as sleep and the state-of-the-dead and say that they should not be taken literally.
In reply to your second post...
For a certainty the Scriptures are clear that Jesus did die, and He was raised back to life. Those two facts must remain the solid foundation.
So, since I believe the Scriptures which say that death is essentially ceasing to exist, that is exactly what I believe Jesus did. I believe He died. Then...on the third day, He was raised again! :-) (That's an "amen!" moment)
The argument you posed is interesting because it's almost identical to the argument that I believe causes such a problem for those who believe we suffer in hell forever. It goes like this:
If the wages of sin isn't death, as the Bible claims, but instead burning throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity...if that is the wages of sin...then Christ did not pay the full cost...since He would have had to burn in hell forever to take our place.
Again, I want to reiterate that I believe the vast majority of Scripture should be taken literally, at face value, unless there is a clear and obvious reason not to. The only instance I can think of when we shouldn't take the Bible literally, is in parables and in prophetic visions which are full of symbolism, such as Daniel's visions and the book of Revelation, etc.
In my mind this fact doesn't lessen Christ's sacrifice or His divinity, but on the contrary, like I mentioned before, this biblical view of death makes it possible that Christ did pay the full wages of sin, which is death, and not burning in hell forever.
Rest assured, I will study this doctrine even more carefully, paying special attention to Christ's death and resurrection. :-)"
Thomas' Fourth Comment -
"I do apologize for going on so much…but I find this so fascinating. Thank you for indulging me...
You wrote: "I believe Scriptures should be taken literally unless there is an obvious reason not to."
I would agree to that premise. I guess we would differ on what that "obvious reason" might be. To me this issue of Christ's death is an "obvious reason" that we should at least consider some alternative interpretation as to what "death" means. (In other words, Adventists may have it wrong, and in having it wrong it may jeopardize your understanding of Christ’s divinity. And that would certainly be a “serious” reason.)
You also wrote: "If the wages of sin isn't death, as the Bible claims, but instead burning throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity...if that is the wages of sin...then Christ did not pay the full cost..."
Whoever said that the wages of sin is NOT death? I think you assume too much about non-Adventist doctrine. The wages of sin IS death (I am not denying that Biblical fact); and Jesus paid that price…He died! …But the question still remains WHAT is death. Is it an unconscious state where we are snuffed out of existence (in which case the Son of God ceased to be) or is it a conscious state where we still experience something?
If it is an unconscious state then the Adventists are right and Jesus ceased to be God when He died - He in fact went out of existence altogether, as you say – which means the Son of God was nonexistent for three days. That is a false doctrine by any standard of authentic Christian belief. God cannot stop existing or change His nature as God. He is eternal and unchanging.
So death must not be a cessation of existence…Unless you want to claim that Jesus did not REALLY experience death (which would then challenge core Christian doctrine on Jesus’ Passion). Either way you have a problem.
If however, death is a conscious state, and we do not cease to exist, then what do the dead experience? Perhaps they experience union with God and with all of the saints in Heaven? …But what if you reject God and Jesus and salvation…then what do you experience. Are you snuffed out then? Perhaps. Or perhaps that is where all of this “hellfire” comes in. We can leave that an open question for now.
Let me offer a larger view of what I am saying. I’ll summarize one possible interpretation of “death” and what Jesus’ death means. I’ll start from the beginning…
We go through our whole lives isolated from one another. We are separated by our physical and spiritual limitations: we have separate bodies, we are limited by space and time, we are limited by our experiences, we may be rejected by others, or abused, and so on, all of these things drive a wedge between us and our fellow man. We are also isolated from God and from His Grace. Since the fall of man in the Garden of Eden we have been cut off from God and we have had antagonism between one another.
What God wants is to bring us into Communion with Him and with each other, thus Jesus calls us to love one another and to love God above all else – LOVE conquers the isolation and division that mankind suffers from. When we open ourselves to Jesus and God’s love He can repair our fallen state; He can heal our isolation from Him and from one another.
Now what is death? Death is the penalty for sin (just as you say). Death is the ultimate isolation. It is a cutting off from all others. We experience tastes of this isolation in this life (we experience a certain isolation as I described above), but death is the final wage of sin. When we die we are cut off completely from God and from one another. That does not mean that we cease to exist. It means we experience consciously this extreme sense of isolation. It is a radical sense of being cast out and abandoned. And there is no way any mere human can overcome this isolation that death brings about. We cannot conquer death on our own.
Jesus came to earth as God-made-flesh. He is a man, and being a man He chose to experience death just as we do and He confronted this feeling of isolation that death brings about. He did conscious spiritual battle with death. BUT…and this is huge…Jesus is also God…and God is LOVE. When pure divine LOVE enters into the place of utter isolation that is death….what happens? Death is conquered!!! (There’s your Amen moment ;) )
The wages of sin is certainly death. But death is not a snuffing out of existence. Death is utter isolation and hopelessness (sometimes described as unquenchable fire or being shut out from the wedding feast or other metaphors). God brings us hope by shedding the light of Christ’s Love into the dark place of death. Death is transformed from the inside out.
Now, because of Jesus, when one dies with Christ, one finds LOVE waiting on the other side. Death looses its sting.
(I might add…. You argue that Jesus did not pay the full price because He did not suffer hell eternally. Well He was also not snuffed out eternally. So if it is the “eternal” part that you take issue with, then your doctrine suffers from the same problem. Wouldn’t it make more sense if Jesus went out of existence and then never came back? Isn’t THAT what death was all about before He came? Wouldn’t THAT be taking on the FULL penalty of death?)
(Also I must note that what I gave as one possible interpretation is NOT the OFFICIAL Catholic position. It is ONLY ONE theologians attempt at an explanation. And this theory has its Catholic critics. The Catholic Church actually allows for private interpretation as long as one’s private views do not conflict with core doctrine or that you do not force your view on others.)"
My Last Response -
"No need to apologize, I quite enjoy the dialogue! I'm just glad that you don't get angry and frusterated like so many tend to do when talking theology with those whose views differ greatly.
This is the first thought that came to mind when I read your post:
The first lie in the Bible was told by Satan, and it is very revealing. As his first lie to the human race, we can learn a little about one of the main deceptions he uses today.
It's found in Genesis 3:4, "Then the serpent said to the woman, 'You will not surely die' "
Interesting that Satan told Eve that she wouldn't really die.
Now, oddly enough, worldly people define death MORE correctly that most church members. For worldly people say that death means death.
Webster's defines "death" as: "Extinction of life."
Cambridge defines "death" as: "The end of life."
Yet the devil has implanted this idea within the churches that says, "When you die, you don't REALLY die...you go on living in a different form."
The last part of Satan's first lie was this: "You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
It's amazing how similar that sounds to what most churches teach today...that when we die, we don't really die, but instead our eyes are opened, we become a spirit similar to God and we somehow know good and evil.
The truth is that only God truly knows good and evil, and He has to tell us what is good and what is evil.
Like you said, it seems to come down to what we consider "death." But I still ask the question, if the wages of sin is death, and death means burning in hell forever, then how could Christ have paid the full price if He only "died" for three days?
I don't see Adventist's belief that death really means death somehow jeopardizes the divinity of Christ. To me, it only amplifies His love, that He was willing to die, really die, for you and me.
That was a good "Amen moment"! I couldn't help but have a big smile on my face as I read your account of Christ conquering death...good stuff!
I see what you're saying in regards to the eternal aspect of the wages of sin. But I don't believe it's the "eternal" part that is the wages of sin, it's "death...period."
What I mean is that it doesn't matter how long you cease to exist, it's the fact that you've been destroyed...perished. So Christ paid the full penalty, He died, or perished, on our behalf. The amazing miracle that we can't fathom is that Christ, as you said, conquered death and was raised again!
How do Catholics interpret passages like John 3:16 which say that whoever believes in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life?
If we lived forever separated from God, wouldn't that still be everlasting life? And does "perish" not really mean perish but, instead, living forever separated from God?
Like you, I must note that I'm surely no trained theologian of the Adventist faith...so I may not always say what a real theologian would...these are only my personal thoughts.
One thing that I appreciate is that regardless of what we believe about what happens when we die, if we abide in Christ while we're here and follow the light He's revealed to us, we'll just be happy to make it to heaven, regardless of the things we didn't have quite right. :-)"
So, I hope you've been blessed by this peek into the theological musings of a Seventh-day Adventist and a Roman Catholic.
Thomas' Original Comment-
"Interestingly, in your brief thoughts laid out here, you have also just answered the question of how the dead can be conscious after death. When we die perhaps we slip into that realm where time no longer has a grasp on us. It could be argued that the dead can see the Resurrection already before them - seemingly in a moment they have experienced new life - though to us who are left behind here on earth, time marches on. It is a matter of perspective.
The dead are outside of time and can see time from a new perspective. This is why Jesus could tell the thief, "Today you will be with me in paradise."
Perhaps the dead can view time from the outside looking in - sort of a "window" on time. They can see us, and can know our needs and wants. God can allow this, as He is the Master of all time and space. This is how the dead are able to offer our prayers to God like incense, as in the Book of Revelation. This is why Moses and Elijah could appear with Jesus in the Transfiguration - God can allow them to step through the window of time.
This is also why Jesus could tell the parable of the rich man who wished to warn his brothers of their impending doom. Why would Jesus tell a parable that reflects a FALSE view of death? It makes much more sense that Jesus would reflect TRUTH in his teachings. If the dead man could see his brothers and be conscious of them, then there must be some time/space alteration when we die.
If the dead can offer our prayers, or can appear with Jesus beyond the grave, or experience "paradise" as though it is "today," then time and space must be different when we are dead.
Just as Jesus, after death, could be both "asleep in death" and yet remain the sustainer of creation, so too can those who have died be both asleep and alive in Christ. God is the God of the living not the dead. So who are we to say what that new life is like?
I understand that your immediate response will be, "Just read what I have already posted on this subject." ...Well, I have read that post. But what I am saying is that you are still left with your question above: How can Jesus be "asleep" and yet remain the Sustainer of Creation? If Jesus truly experienced death (which I believe He did) then we must explain death in different terms than your Adventist church seems to explain it. Something is wrong with a "sleeping" death if it means that Jesus ceases to be who He is. However, if we allow that death itself entails a time/space alteration then we have opened up the necessity to re-interpret what you posted about death previously. Perhaps the "sleep" theory relies to heavily on how we perceive time here on earth and doesn't take into consideration God's view of time, and our sharing of God's life after death."
My Initial Response -
"Our difference is this: I don't believe we will ever be outside of time, as God is. If we were outside of time after death, we would then be omnipresent, for we could then be all places at once in the view of those "within time" if we were no longer restricted by time.
This is not my only reason, though, for believing that those attributes belong to God alone. There are also the passages in Isaiah which speak of the redeemed gathering together from new moon to new moon and from sabbath to sabbath to worship God...which to me shows that we, as created beings, are always within the confines of time and space.
But regardless of that fact, for the one who dies and ceases to exist, or sleeps in the grave, as some like to say, it will be as a split second before we open our eyes in the resurrection. They will not be conscious of any passage of time. As you said, it is only to those of us who remain here on earth that it seems like they have been gone for so long.
I don't find any Scriptural evidence for praying to anyone other than God. He is omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent...surely He does not need help hearing or answering the prayers. On the contrary, the Bible is clear that God Himself always hears our prayers.
One important thing to remember about parables is that they are designed primarily to teach one truth. If we read into them and try to make doctrines of all the various parts and place meaning where none is intended, we "wrest the Scriptures to our own destruction."
The rich man and Lazarus was certainly not told by Jesus with the intention of explaining what happens when we die. I may write a post on this parable, as it is an interesting one.
Certainly all the saved aren't in Abraham's chest cavity...and certainly they cannot look over and see wicked people burning in agony, let alone have conversations with them...certainly a single drop of water on a burning man's tongue would be of no comfort...and probably most importantly, we cannot ignore the hundreds of Bible verses which show that the dead are "sleeping in their graves", "know nothing", "all their thoughts, love, hate, etc have perished", the "dead don't praise God", the dead "wait in the grave until the resurrection", the dead "have no more portion in anything done under the sun", etc. etc.
To arrive at a correct understanding of any Bible truth, we must get all the Bible passages on the subject, and look at the big picture...when we do that, things become very clear, and parables such as the rich man and Lazarus can be seen for their true meaning.
For me the answer to the question of how Jesus can be in the grave and yet be the sustainer of all things is simple...He is God. :-)
With God all things are possible.
If there is one thing that the state of the dead doctrine relies too heavily on, it is Bible texts. For I must admit...our human minds can come up with all kinds of neat ideas about what happens when you die, but if we listen to the plethora of Bible verses on the subject, we must come to the conclusion that the dead are in the grave until the resurrection.
I do enjoy reading about your point of view, though. Keep 'em coming. :-)"
Thomas' Second Comment -
""I don't find any Scriptural evidence for praying to anyone other than God. He is omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent...surely He does not need help hearing or answering the prayers."
Just to clarify...when Catholics "pray" to saints, we ask the saints to pray on our behalf - to pray WITH us - we do not pray TO the saints. It is no different than asking any living fellow Christian to pray with you. If God hears all of our prayers, then why would you ask fellow Christians (living or dead) to pray with you? Simple, because it is not a matter going to other Christians INSTEAD of God, rather it is going to God WITH other Christians - a heavenly prayer circle.
My main point is this: I am certain you have many Biblical texts that back up your conclusion about the dead being unconscious or non-existent...but just as you pointed out certain elements of Scripture (in the parables, for instance) should not be taken too literally, I too would say that things like "from sabbath to sabbath" and "from new moon to new moon" should not be taken as literal markings of time. They could be metaphors. And perhaps "sleep" does not mean that the dead are REALLY unconscious from their own perspective, but rather they are only "asleep" from OUR perspective. Those of us who are left here in this life experience their death as a "going to sleep." The Bible uses this analogy to describe a certain perspective of death. But even Jesus said that God is the God of the LIVING, when referring to the Patriarchs. The Patriarchs are dead, yet they are also alive. It depends on your perspective.
All of this is very interesting, but it is just you and I going round and round about who is interpreting correctly. When it comes down to it, we won't convince each other based on the "Bible Alone." We each have a different way of interpreting the Bible, and it is that interpretation and not the BIBLE that is the question. It is a matter of two competing "systems" of interpretation. This is why I like to study the history of these doctrines to discover whether they can be traced to ancient sources.
Anyway, you are still left with a problem...Either Jesus really did die and experienced an unconscious death (as you define death) and so ceased to be the Sustainer of Creation, or He did not really die, He experienced something other than death, remaining conscious, and so his passion was a farce in that respect."
Thomas' Third Comment -
"Allow me to clarify...
To begin with, let us say that you are correct. Let's assume that "death" is a state of unconsciousness. Let's put aside any other doctrinal differences you and I might have about saints or time/space awareness or anything else, and let's just say that "death" is exactly what Adventists claim it to be...When someone experiences death they go unconscious (or cease to exist...or however you understand that to be). Death means that the person ceases to be a conscious being.
Now we are faced with passages such as this..."...he humbled himself and became obedient to death — even death on a cross!" (Philippians 2:8)It would seem that being "obedient to death" would mean to subject oneself to the reality of death. And the reality of death is that it is an unconscious state, or to be put out of existence altogether. To say otherwise is to say that Jesus was NOT obedient to death. He did not really "die."
If Jesus is God (which I assume you believe in the doctrine of the Trinity), and Jesus really did die which the Scriptures say He did, then we must say that God ceased to be God when Jesus died... That is, if death means what you say it means, then when Jesus died the Son of God stopped being God and went dormant or out of existence completely.
That pretty much sums up your initial post. You have stated the dilemma that is present in the Adventist position. But rather than question the doctrine itself you defend your position by simply saying, "Well, all things are possible with God."
So what does that mean?
Does it mean that Jesus did not experience death the same way that you and I do? Well then, that means that the Scripture is false when it says that Jesus was "obedient to death." It means that Jesus did NOT experience death at all. He experienced something different than death - some altered version of death. He was not obedient to death, but obedient to some pseudo-death - He did not follow through in His obedience nor did He experience the death that He came to conquer. How could He conquer that which He never faced?
This possible "alternative version" of death may in theory preserve Jesus' divinity, but it creates a huge problem for the Adventist position. It calls into question the reality of Jesus' Passion and death...
Either way, this one doctrine seems to conflict with the bigger issue of the person Jesus, the Son of God, and what His life and death means to us. When that happens, when a core precept of Christianity is challenged by a minor doctrine, it seems the wise thing to do would be to explore a different way of understanding your notion of death.
Please understand that I am not attacking the Bible in any of this. You and I both use the Bible to arrive at our conclusions. But the Bible can be interpreted to mean a great many things. What matters is whether it is being interpreted correctly. You yourself admit that some passages should be interpreted literally and other figuratively (like Jesus' parables, for instance). The problem is that many people disagree on how that should be - what is literal and what is not. If you believe that the Adventist Church has cornered the market on biblical interpretation it is no different than when any other church claims to do the same thing...including the Catholic Church, I might add. We ALL believe that we "got it right." And we believe we got there with biblical passages to back it up. I don't blame you for that.
So we could go round and round over who is right or wrong...but it is all based on interpretation, and these things can differ. The only reason I posted is to point out that your original post is right on the money about the Adventist problem with death. It seems to contradict Christianity itself. It seems to be a glaring problem with Adventism. I would explore this doctrine further if I were you and see who first proposed it, see if it is an ancient Christian belief or a modern invention. I'm sure the Scriptures seem to back it up, but when the doctrine seems to challenge Jesus' Sonship or the reality of His death that would be a huge red flag to me."
My Second Response -
"In regard to the first of your two recent replies, I just want to clarify my position about the Scriptures.
"but just as you pointed out certain elements of Scripture (in the parables, for instance) should not be taken too literally"
When I say that parts of Scripture should not be taken literally, I mean a very narrow portion of Scriptures...mainly parables. I think it is very dangerous to take this fact further than absolutely necessary...in other words, I believe Scriptures should be taken literally unless there is an obvious reason not to. So, the majority of Scripture should, in my view, be taken quite literally.
So I cannot take the numerous Scriptures referencing death as sleep and the state-of-the-dead and say that they should not be taken literally.
In reply to your second post...
For a certainty the Scriptures are clear that Jesus did die, and He was raised back to life. Those two facts must remain the solid foundation.
So, since I believe the Scriptures which say that death is essentially ceasing to exist, that is exactly what I believe Jesus did. I believe He died. Then...on the third day, He was raised again! :-) (That's an "amen!" moment)
The argument you posed is interesting because it's almost identical to the argument that I believe causes such a problem for those who believe we suffer in hell forever. It goes like this:
If the wages of sin isn't death, as the Bible claims, but instead burning throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity...if that is the wages of sin...then Christ did not pay the full cost...since He would have had to burn in hell forever to take our place.
Again, I want to reiterate that I believe the vast majority of Scripture should be taken literally, at face value, unless there is a clear and obvious reason not to. The only instance I can think of when we shouldn't take the Bible literally, is in parables and in prophetic visions which are full of symbolism, such as Daniel's visions and the book of Revelation, etc.
In my mind this fact doesn't lessen Christ's sacrifice or His divinity, but on the contrary, like I mentioned before, this biblical view of death makes it possible that Christ did pay the full wages of sin, which is death, and not burning in hell forever.
Rest assured, I will study this doctrine even more carefully, paying special attention to Christ's death and resurrection. :-)"
Thomas' Fourth Comment -
"I do apologize for going on so much…but I find this so fascinating. Thank you for indulging me...
You wrote: "I believe Scriptures should be taken literally unless there is an obvious reason not to."
I would agree to that premise. I guess we would differ on what that "obvious reason" might be. To me this issue of Christ's death is an "obvious reason" that we should at least consider some alternative interpretation as to what "death" means. (In other words, Adventists may have it wrong, and in having it wrong it may jeopardize your understanding of Christ’s divinity. And that would certainly be a “serious” reason.)
You also wrote: "If the wages of sin isn't death, as the Bible claims, but instead burning throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity...if that is the wages of sin...then Christ did not pay the full cost..."
Whoever said that the wages of sin is NOT death? I think you assume too much about non-Adventist doctrine. The wages of sin IS death (I am not denying that Biblical fact); and Jesus paid that price…He died! …But the question still remains WHAT is death. Is it an unconscious state where we are snuffed out of existence (in which case the Son of God ceased to be) or is it a conscious state where we still experience something?
If it is an unconscious state then the Adventists are right and Jesus ceased to be God when He died - He in fact went out of existence altogether, as you say – which means the Son of God was nonexistent for three days. That is a false doctrine by any standard of authentic Christian belief. God cannot stop existing or change His nature as God. He is eternal and unchanging.
So death must not be a cessation of existence…Unless you want to claim that Jesus did not REALLY experience death (which would then challenge core Christian doctrine on Jesus’ Passion). Either way you have a problem.
If however, death is a conscious state, and we do not cease to exist, then what do the dead experience? Perhaps they experience union with God and with all of the saints in Heaven? …But what if you reject God and Jesus and salvation…then what do you experience. Are you snuffed out then? Perhaps. Or perhaps that is where all of this “hellfire” comes in. We can leave that an open question for now.
Let me offer a larger view of what I am saying. I’ll summarize one possible interpretation of “death” and what Jesus’ death means. I’ll start from the beginning…
We go through our whole lives isolated from one another. We are separated by our physical and spiritual limitations: we have separate bodies, we are limited by space and time, we are limited by our experiences, we may be rejected by others, or abused, and so on, all of these things drive a wedge between us and our fellow man. We are also isolated from God and from His Grace. Since the fall of man in the Garden of Eden we have been cut off from God and we have had antagonism between one another.
What God wants is to bring us into Communion with Him and with each other, thus Jesus calls us to love one another and to love God above all else – LOVE conquers the isolation and division that mankind suffers from. When we open ourselves to Jesus and God’s love He can repair our fallen state; He can heal our isolation from Him and from one another.
Now what is death? Death is the penalty for sin (just as you say). Death is the ultimate isolation. It is a cutting off from all others. We experience tastes of this isolation in this life (we experience a certain isolation as I described above), but death is the final wage of sin. When we die we are cut off completely from God and from one another. That does not mean that we cease to exist. It means we experience consciously this extreme sense of isolation. It is a radical sense of being cast out and abandoned. And there is no way any mere human can overcome this isolation that death brings about. We cannot conquer death on our own.
Jesus came to earth as God-made-flesh. He is a man, and being a man He chose to experience death just as we do and He confronted this feeling of isolation that death brings about. He did conscious spiritual battle with death. BUT…and this is huge…Jesus is also God…and God is LOVE. When pure divine LOVE enters into the place of utter isolation that is death….what happens? Death is conquered!!! (There’s your Amen moment ;) )
The wages of sin is certainly death. But death is not a snuffing out of existence. Death is utter isolation and hopelessness (sometimes described as unquenchable fire or being shut out from the wedding feast or other metaphors). God brings us hope by shedding the light of Christ’s Love into the dark place of death. Death is transformed from the inside out.
Now, because of Jesus, when one dies with Christ, one finds LOVE waiting on the other side. Death looses its sting.
(I might add…. You argue that Jesus did not pay the full price because He did not suffer hell eternally. Well He was also not snuffed out eternally. So if it is the “eternal” part that you take issue with, then your doctrine suffers from the same problem. Wouldn’t it make more sense if Jesus went out of existence and then never came back? Isn’t THAT what death was all about before He came? Wouldn’t THAT be taking on the FULL penalty of death?)
(Also I must note that what I gave as one possible interpretation is NOT the OFFICIAL Catholic position. It is ONLY ONE theologians attempt at an explanation. And this theory has its Catholic critics. The Catholic Church actually allows for private interpretation as long as one’s private views do not conflict with core doctrine or that you do not force your view on others.)"
My Last Response -
"No need to apologize, I quite enjoy the dialogue! I'm just glad that you don't get angry and frusterated like so many tend to do when talking theology with those whose views differ greatly.
This is the first thought that came to mind when I read your post:
The first lie in the Bible was told by Satan, and it is very revealing. As his first lie to the human race, we can learn a little about one of the main deceptions he uses today.
It's found in Genesis 3:4, "Then the serpent said to the woman, 'You will not surely die' "
Interesting that Satan told Eve that she wouldn't really die.
Now, oddly enough, worldly people define death MORE correctly that most church members. For worldly people say that death means death.
Webster's defines "death" as: "Extinction of life."
Cambridge defines "death" as: "The end of life."
Yet the devil has implanted this idea within the churches that says, "When you die, you don't REALLY die...you go on living in a different form."
The last part of Satan's first lie was this: "You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
It's amazing how similar that sounds to what most churches teach today...that when we die, we don't really die, but instead our eyes are opened, we become a spirit similar to God and we somehow know good and evil.
The truth is that only God truly knows good and evil, and He has to tell us what is good and what is evil.
Like you said, it seems to come down to what we consider "death." But I still ask the question, if the wages of sin is death, and death means burning in hell forever, then how could Christ have paid the full price if He only "died" for three days?
I don't see Adventist's belief that death really means death somehow jeopardizes the divinity of Christ. To me, it only amplifies His love, that He was willing to die, really die, for you and me.
That was a good "Amen moment"! I couldn't help but have a big smile on my face as I read your account of Christ conquering death...good stuff!
I see what you're saying in regards to the eternal aspect of the wages of sin. But I don't believe it's the "eternal" part that is the wages of sin, it's "death...period."
What I mean is that it doesn't matter how long you cease to exist, it's the fact that you've been destroyed...perished. So Christ paid the full penalty, He died, or perished, on our behalf. The amazing miracle that we can't fathom is that Christ, as you said, conquered death and was raised again!
How do Catholics interpret passages like John 3:16 which say that whoever believes in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life?
If we lived forever separated from God, wouldn't that still be everlasting life? And does "perish" not really mean perish but, instead, living forever separated from God?
Like you, I must note that I'm surely no trained theologian of the Adventist faith...so I may not always say what a real theologian would...these are only my personal thoughts.
One thing that I appreciate is that regardless of what we believe about what happens when we die, if we abide in Christ while we're here and follow the light He's revealed to us, we'll just be happy to make it to heaven, regardless of the things we didn't have quite right. :-)"
So, I hope you've been blessed by this peek into the theological musings of a Seventh-day Adventist and a Roman Catholic.
Tuesday, December 23, 2008
Is the Devil in Charge of Hell? (Hell)
Well? Does God really keep the devil on His payroll - is he the chief superintendent of hell measuring out the punishment of the lost? Nearly the entire world holds to a very unbiblical view about hell, and you owe it to yourself to know what the Bible really says about it. Don't be fooled, because what you think about hell certainly affects what you think about God's character! Take a few moments to get the amazing facts you need to know today!
How Many lost souls are being punished in hell today?
"The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptation, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished" (2 Peter 2:9, KJV).
There is not one single soul in hellfire today. The Bible says that God reserves, or holds back, the wicked until the day of judgment to be punished.
When will sinners be cast into hellfire?
"So it will be at the end of this age. The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire" (Matthew 13:40-42). "The word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day" (John 12:48).
Sinners will be cast into hellfire at the great judgment day at the end of the world - not when they die. God would not punish a person in fire until his case was tried and decided in court at the end of the world. Nor would God burn a murderer who died 5,000 years ago 5,000 years longer than one who dies and deserves punishment for the same sin today (Genesis 18:25).
Where are sinners (who have died) now?
"The hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth - those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation" (John 5:28, 29). "That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction?" "Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb" (Job 21:30, 32, KJV).
The Bible is specific. Both the wicked and the righteous who have died are in the graves "sleeping" until the resurrection day.
What is the end result of sin?
"The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 6:23). "Sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death" (James 1:15). "God ... gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life" (John 3:16).
The wages (or punishment) for sin is death, not everlasting life in hellfire. The wicked "perish," or receive "death." The righteous receive "everlasting life."
What will happen to the wicked in hellfire?
"But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death" (Revelation 21:8).
The wicked die the second death in hellfire. If the wicked lived forever being tortured in hell, they would be immortal. But this is impossible, because the Bible says God "alone has immortality" (1 Timothy 6:16). When Adam and Eve were driven from the Garden of Eden, an angel was posted to guard the tree of life so that sinners would not eat of the tree and "live forever." (Genesis 3:22-24). The teaching that sinners are immortal in hell originated with Satan and is completely untrue. God prevented this when sin entered this earth by guarding the tree of life.
The Bible is clear, the wicked are obliterated. The Bible says the wicked suffer "death" (Romans 6:23), will suffer "doom" [destruction] (Job 21:30), "shall perish" (Psalm 37:20), "shall be cut off" (Psalm 37:9), "shall be slain" (Psalm 62:3). God will "destroy" them (Psalm 145:20), and "fire shall devour them" (Psalm 21:9). Note that all of these references make it clear that the wicked die and are destroyed. They do not live forever in misery.
When and how will hellfire be kindled?
"So it will be at the end of this age. The Son of man ... will cast them into the furnace of fire" (Matthew 13:40-42). "They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them" (Revelation 20:9). "The righteous will be recompensed on the earth, how much more the ungodly and the sinner" (Proverbs 11:31).
At the end of the world, God Himself will kindle hellfire. As the holy city comes down from God out of heaven (Revelation 21:2), the wicked attempt to capture it. At that time, God will rain down fire from heaven upon the earth, and it will devour the wicked. This fire is Bible hellfire.
How big and how hot will hellfire be?
"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up" (2 Peter 3:10).
Hellfire will be just as big as this earth because it will be the earth on fire. This fire will be so hot as to melt the earth and burn up all "the works that are in it." The atmospheric heavens will explode and "pass away with a great noise."
How long will the wicked suffer in the fire?
"And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work" (Revelation 22:12). "And then He will reward each according to his works" (Matthew 16:27). "And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not ... do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few" (Luke 12:47, 48).
The Bible does not tell how long the wicked will be punished before receiving death in the fire. God does specifically state, however, that all will be punished according to their deeds. This means some will receive greater punishment than others, based upon their works.
Will the fire eventually go out?
"Behold, they shall be as stubble, the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame; it shall not be a coal to be warmed by, nor a fire to sit before!" (Isaiah 47:14). "Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth." "And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away" (Revelation 21:1, 4).
Yes, indeed, the Bible specifically teaches that hellfire will go out and that there will not be left "a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before!" The Bible also teaches that in God's new kingdom all "former things" will be passed away. Hell, being one of the former things, is included, so we have God's promise that it will be abolished.
Is God a Torturer?
If God tortured His enemies in a fiery horror chamber throughout eternity, He would be more vicious and heartless than men have ever been in the worse of war atrocities. An eternal hell of torment would be hell for God also, who loves even the vilest sinner.
What will be left when the fire goes out?
"'For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, and all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up,' says the LORD of hosts, 'That will leave them neither root nor branch.'" "'You shall trample the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day that I do this,' says the LORD of hosts" (Malachi 4:1, 3).
Notice the verse does not say the wicked will burn like asbestos, as many today believe, but rather like stubble, which will be burned up. The little word "up" denotes completion. Nothing but ashes will be left when the fire goes out. In Psalm 37:10, 20, the Bible says the wicked will go up in smoke and be completely destroyed.
Will the wicked enter hell in bodily form and be destroyed both soul and body?
"It is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell" (Matthew 5:30). "Rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matthew 10:28). "The soul who sins shall die" (Ezekiel 18:20).
Yes. Real, live people enter hell in bodily form and are destroyed both soul and body. The fire from God out of heaven will fall upon real people and blot them out of existence.
Will the devil be in charge of hellfire?
"The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire" (Revelation 20:10). "I turned you to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all who saw you. ... You ... shall be no more forever" (Ezekiel 28:18, 19).
Absolutely not! The devil will be cast into the fire, and it will turn him into ashes.
Does the word "hell" as used in the Bible always refer to a place of burning or punishment?
No, the word "hell" is used 54 times in the Bible, and in only 12 cases does it refer to "a place of burning."
The word "hell" is translated from several different words with various meanings, as indicated below:
In the Old Testament
31 times from "Sheol," which means "the grave."
In the New Testament
10 times from "Hades," which means "the grave."
12 times from "Gehenna," which means "the place of burning."
1 time from "Tartarus," which means "a place of darkness."
54 times total
Note: The Greek word "Gehenna" (mentioned above) is a transliteration of the Hebrew "Ge-Hinnom," which means the "Valley of Hinnom." This valley, which lies immediately south and west of Jerusalem, was a place where dead animals, garbage, and other refuse were dumped. Fire burned constantly, as it does at modern sanitation dump sites. The Bible uses "Gehenna" or the "Valley of Hinnom" as a symbol of the fire that will destroy the lost at the end of time. The fire of Gehenna was not unending. Otherwise it would be still burning southwest of Jerusalem today. Neither will the fire of hell be unending.
What is God's real purpose in hellfire?
"Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41). "And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire" (Revelation 20:15). "For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more." "The enemies of the LORD ... shall vanish. Into smoke they shall vanish away" (Psalm 37:10, 20).
God's purpose is that hell will destroy the devil and all sin and sinners and make the world safe for eternity. One sinner, if left on this planet, would be a deadly virus forever threatening the universe. It is God's plan to blot sin out of existence for all time.
Eternal Hell Would Perpetuate Sin
An eternal hell of torment would perpetuate sin and make its eradication impossible. An eternal hell of torment is not part of God's great plan at all. Such a horrible theory is slander against the holy name of a loving God. The devil delights to see our loving Creator pictured as such a monstrous tyrant, and he alone can benefit from such teachings.
Eternal Hell a Man-made Theory
The "eternal hell of torment" theory originated not from the Bible, but from misguided people who were (perhaps inadvertently) led of the devil. And, incidentally, while a fear of hell may get our attention, our salvation is the result of learning to love and obey Christ.
Isn't the work of destroying sinners foreign to God's nature?
"'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die?'" (Ezekiel 33:11). "For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives but to save them" (Luke 9:56). "For the LORD will rise up ... that He may do His work, His awesome work, and bring to pass His act, His unusual act" (Isaiah 28:21).
Yes, the work of God has always been to save rather than destroy. The work of destroying the wicked in hellfire is so foreign to God's nature that the Bible calls it His "strange act." God's great heart will ache at the destruction of the wicked. Oh, how diligently He works to save every soul! But if one spurns His love and clings to sin, God will have no choice but to destroy the sinner with his sin when He rids the universe of that horrible, malignant growth called "sin" in the fires of the last day.
What are God's post-hell plans for the earth and His people?
"He will make an utter end of it. Affliction will not rise up a second time" (Nahum 1:9). "For behold, I create a new heavens and a new earth; and the former shall not be remembered or come to mind" (Isaiah 65:17). "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. there shall be no more pain" (Revelation 21:3, 4).
After hellfire goes out, God will create a new earth and restore it to His people - with all the beauties and glories of Eden before sin entered. The horrors of sin and the past will be forgotten. Pain, death, tragedy, woe, tears, sickness, disappointment, sorrow, and all sin will be banished forever.
Sin Will Not Rise Again
God promises that sin will never rise again. His people will be filled with perfect peace, love, joy, and contentment. Their lives of complete happiness will be far more glorious and thrilling than mere words could ever describe. The real tragedy of hell is in missing heaven. A person who fails to enter this magnificent kingdom has made the saddest choice of a lifetime.
Doesn't the Bible speak of "eternal torment"?
No, the phrase "eternal torment" does not appear in the Bible.
Then why does the Bible say that the wicked will be destroyed with unquenchable fire?
Unquenchable fire is fire that cannot be put out, but which goes out when it has turned everything to ashes. Jeremiah 17:27 says Jerusalem was to be destroyed with unquenchable fire, and in 2 Chronicles 36:19-21 the Bible says this fire burned the city "to fulfill the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah" and left it desolate. Yet we know this fire went out, because Jerusalem is not burning today.
Doesn't Matthew 25:46 say the wicked will receive "everlasting punishment"?
Notice the word is punishment, not punishing. Punishing would be continuous, while punishment is one act. The punishment of the wicked is death, and this death is everlasting.
Can you explain Matthew 10:28: "Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul"?
The word "soul" has three meanings in the Bible: (1) a living being - Genesis 2:7, (2) the mind - Psalm 139:14, and (3) life - 1 Samuel 18:1, which here refers to eternal life that God guarantees all who reach His kingdom. No one can take this away. The last part of Matthew 10:28 says both soul and body will be destroyed in hell.
Matthew 25:41 speaks of "everlasting fire" for the wicked. Does it go out?
Yes, according to the Bible, it does. We must let the Bible explain itself. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed with everlasting, or eternal, fire (Jude 7), and that fire turned them "into ashes" as a warning to "those who afterward would live ungodly" (2 Peter 2:6). These cities are not burning today. The fire went out after everything was burned up. Likewise, everlasting fire will go out after it has turned the wicked to ashes (Malachi 4:3). The effects of the fire are everlasting, but not the burning itself.
Doesn't the story of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31 teach an eternal hell of torment?
No, indeed! It is simply a parable used to emphasize a point. Many facts make it clear that this is a parable. A few are as follows:
-Abraham's bosom is not heaven (Hebrews 11:8-10, 16).
-People in hell can't talk to those in heaven (Isaiah 65:17).
-The dead are in their graves (Job 17:13 ; John 5:28, 29). The rich man was in bodily form with eyes, a tongue, etc., yet we know that the body does not go to hell at death. It is very obvious that the body remains in the grave, as the Bible says.
-Men are rewarded at Christ's second coming, not at death (Revelation 22:11, 12).
-The lost are punished in hell at the end of the world, not when they die (Matthew 13:40-42).
The point of the story is found in verse 31 of Luke 16. Parables cannot be taken literally. If we took parables literally, then we must believe that trees talk! (See this parable in Judges 9:8-15.)
But the Bible speaks of the wicked being tormented "forever," doesn't it?
The term "for ever," as used in the Bible, means simply a period of time, limited or unlimited. It is used 56 times in the Bible in connection with things that have already ended. (To check in a concordance, look up the word "ever.") It is like the word "tall," which means something different in describing men, trees, or mountains. In Jonah 2:6, "forever" means "three days and nights." (See also Jonah 1:17.) In Deuteronomy 23:3, this means "10 generations." In the case of man, this means "as long as he lives" or "until death." (See 1 Samuel 1:22, 28 ; Exodus 21:6 ; Psalm 48:14.) So the wicked will burn in the fire as long as they live, or until death. This fiery punishment for sin will vary according to the degree of sins for each individual, but after the punishment, the fire will go out. The teaching of eternal torment has done more to drive people to atheism and insanity than any other invention of the devil. It is slander upon the loving character of a tender, gracious heavenly Father and has done untold harm to the Christian cause.
I want to again thank Amazing Facts for this Bible study. How wonderful to realize that we don't serve a God who would burn people in hell for the ceaseless ages of eternity! I could never serve such a God. How could anyone who calls themselves Christians be happy in heaven knowing that somewhere in the universe people are being endlessly tormented. Praise God for His mercy! We can surely trust the Lord and His plans!
God bless you and keep you!
How Many lost souls are being punished in hell today?
"The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptation, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished" (2 Peter 2:9, KJV).
There is not one single soul in hellfire today. The Bible says that God reserves, or holds back, the wicked until the day of judgment to be punished.
When will sinners be cast into hellfire?
"So it will be at the end of this age. The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire" (Matthew 13:40-42). "The word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day" (John 12:48).
Sinners will be cast into hellfire at the great judgment day at the end of the world - not when they die. God would not punish a person in fire until his case was tried and decided in court at the end of the world. Nor would God burn a murderer who died 5,000 years ago 5,000 years longer than one who dies and deserves punishment for the same sin today (Genesis 18:25).
Where are sinners (who have died) now?
"The hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth - those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation" (John 5:28, 29). "That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction?" "Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb" (Job 21:30, 32, KJV).
The Bible is specific. Both the wicked and the righteous who have died are in the graves "sleeping" until the resurrection day.
What is the end result of sin?
"The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 6:23). "Sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death" (James 1:15). "God ... gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life" (John 3:16).
The wages (or punishment) for sin is death, not everlasting life in hellfire. The wicked "perish," or receive "death." The righteous receive "everlasting life."
What will happen to the wicked in hellfire?
"But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death" (Revelation 21:8).
The wicked die the second death in hellfire. If the wicked lived forever being tortured in hell, they would be immortal. But this is impossible, because the Bible says God "alone has immortality" (1 Timothy 6:16). When Adam and Eve were driven from the Garden of Eden, an angel was posted to guard the tree of life so that sinners would not eat of the tree and "live forever." (Genesis 3:22-24). The teaching that sinners are immortal in hell originated with Satan and is completely untrue. God prevented this when sin entered this earth by guarding the tree of life.
The Bible is clear, the wicked are obliterated. The Bible says the wicked suffer "death" (Romans 6:23), will suffer "doom" [destruction] (Job 21:30), "shall perish" (Psalm 37:20), "shall be cut off" (Psalm 37:9), "shall be slain" (Psalm 62:3). God will "destroy" them (Psalm 145:20), and "fire shall devour them" (Psalm 21:9). Note that all of these references make it clear that the wicked die and are destroyed. They do not live forever in misery.
When and how will hellfire be kindled?
"So it will be at the end of this age. The Son of man ... will cast them into the furnace of fire" (Matthew 13:40-42). "They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them" (Revelation 20:9). "The righteous will be recompensed on the earth, how much more the ungodly and the sinner" (Proverbs 11:31).
At the end of the world, God Himself will kindle hellfire. As the holy city comes down from God out of heaven (Revelation 21:2), the wicked attempt to capture it. At that time, God will rain down fire from heaven upon the earth, and it will devour the wicked. This fire is Bible hellfire.
How big and how hot will hellfire be?
"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up" (2 Peter 3:10).
Hellfire will be just as big as this earth because it will be the earth on fire. This fire will be so hot as to melt the earth and burn up all "the works that are in it." The atmospheric heavens will explode and "pass away with a great noise."
How long will the wicked suffer in the fire?
"And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work" (Revelation 22:12). "And then He will reward each according to his works" (Matthew 16:27). "And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not ... do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few" (Luke 12:47, 48).
The Bible does not tell how long the wicked will be punished before receiving death in the fire. God does specifically state, however, that all will be punished according to their deeds. This means some will receive greater punishment than others, based upon their works.
Will the fire eventually go out?
"Behold, they shall be as stubble, the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame; it shall not be a coal to be warmed by, nor a fire to sit before!" (Isaiah 47:14). "Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth." "And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away" (Revelation 21:1, 4).
Yes, indeed, the Bible specifically teaches that hellfire will go out and that there will not be left "a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before!" The Bible also teaches that in God's new kingdom all "former things" will be passed away. Hell, being one of the former things, is included, so we have God's promise that it will be abolished.
Is God a Torturer?
If God tortured His enemies in a fiery horror chamber throughout eternity, He would be more vicious and heartless than men have ever been in the worse of war atrocities. An eternal hell of torment would be hell for God also, who loves even the vilest sinner.
What will be left when the fire goes out?
"'For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, and all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up,' says the LORD of hosts, 'That will leave them neither root nor branch.'" "'You shall trample the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day that I do this,' says the LORD of hosts" (Malachi 4:1, 3).
Notice the verse does not say the wicked will burn like asbestos, as many today believe, but rather like stubble, which will be burned up. The little word "up" denotes completion. Nothing but ashes will be left when the fire goes out. In Psalm 37:10, 20, the Bible says the wicked will go up in smoke and be completely destroyed.
Will the wicked enter hell in bodily form and be destroyed both soul and body?
"It is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell" (Matthew 5:30). "Rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matthew 10:28). "The soul who sins shall die" (Ezekiel 18:20).
Yes. Real, live people enter hell in bodily form and are destroyed both soul and body. The fire from God out of heaven will fall upon real people and blot them out of existence.
Will the devil be in charge of hellfire?
"The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire" (Revelation 20:10). "I turned you to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all who saw you. ... You ... shall be no more forever" (Ezekiel 28:18, 19).
Absolutely not! The devil will be cast into the fire, and it will turn him into ashes.
Does the word "hell" as used in the Bible always refer to a place of burning or punishment?
No, the word "hell" is used 54 times in the Bible, and in only 12 cases does it refer to "a place of burning."
The word "hell" is translated from several different words with various meanings, as indicated below:
In the Old Testament
31 times from "Sheol," which means "the grave."
In the New Testament
10 times from "Hades," which means "the grave."
12 times from "Gehenna," which means "the place of burning."
1 time from "Tartarus," which means "a place of darkness."
54 times total
Note: The Greek word "Gehenna" (mentioned above) is a transliteration of the Hebrew "Ge-Hinnom," which means the "Valley of Hinnom." This valley, which lies immediately south and west of Jerusalem, was a place where dead animals, garbage, and other refuse were dumped. Fire burned constantly, as it does at modern sanitation dump sites. The Bible uses "Gehenna" or the "Valley of Hinnom" as a symbol of the fire that will destroy the lost at the end of time. The fire of Gehenna was not unending. Otherwise it would be still burning southwest of Jerusalem today. Neither will the fire of hell be unending.
What is God's real purpose in hellfire?
"Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41). "And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire" (Revelation 20:15). "For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more." "The enemies of the LORD ... shall vanish. Into smoke they shall vanish away" (Psalm 37:10, 20).
God's purpose is that hell will destroy the devil and all sin and sinners and make the world safe for eternity. One sinner, if left on this planet, would be a deadly virus forever threatening the universe. It is God's plan to blot sin out of existence for all time.
Eternal Hell Would Perpetuate Sin
An eternal hell of torment would perpetuate sin and make its eradication impossible. An eternal hell of torment is not part of God's great plan at all. Such a horrible theory is slander against the holy name of a loving God. The devil delights to see our loving Creator pictured as such a monstrous tyrant, and he alone can benefit from such teachings.
Eternal Hell a Man-made Theory
The "eternal hell of torment" theory originated not from the Bible, but from misguided people who were (perhaps inadvertently) led of the devil. And, incidentally, while a fear of hell may get our attention, our salvation is the result of learning to love and obey Christ.
Isn't the work of destroying sinners foreign to God's nature?
"'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die?'" (Ezekiel 33:11). "For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives but to save them" (Luke 9:56). "For the LORD will rise up ... that He may do His work, His awesome work, and bring to pass His act, His unusual act" (Isaiah 28:21).
Yes, the work of God has always been to save rather than destroy. The work of destroying the wicked in hellfire is so foreign to God's nature that the Bible calls it His "strange act." God's great heart will ache at the destruction of the wicked. Oh, how diligently He works to save every soul! But if one spurns His love and clings to sin, God will have no choice but to destroy the sinner with his sin when He rids the universe of that horrible, malignant growth called "sin" in the fires of the last day.
What are God's post-hell plans for the earth and His people?
"He will make an utter end of it. Affliction will not rise up a second time" (Nahum 1:9). "For behold, I create a new heavens and a new earth; and the former shall not be remembered or come to mind" (Isaiah 65:17). "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. there shall be no more pain" (Revelation 21:3, 4).
After hellfire goes out, God will create a new earth and restore it to His people - with all the beauties and glories of Eden before sin entered. The horrors of sin and the past will be forgotten. Pain, death, tragedy, woe, tears, sickness, disappointment, sorrow, and all sin will be banished forever.
Sin Will Not Rise Again
God promises that sin will never rise again. His people will be filled with perfect peace, love, joy, and contentment. Their lives of complete happiness will be far more glorious and thrilling than mere words could ever describe. The real tragedy of hell is in missing heaven. A person who fails to enter this magnificent kingdom has made the saddest choice of a lifetime.
Doesn't the Bible speak of "eternal torment"?
No, the phrase "eternal torment" does not appear in the Bible.
Then why does the Bible say that the wicked will be destroyed with unquenchable fire?
Unquenchable fire is fire that cannot be put out, but which goes out when it has turned everything to ashes. Jeremiah 17:27 says Jerusalem was to be destroyed with unquenchable fire, and in 2 Chronicles 36:19-21 the Bible says this fire burned the city "to fulfill the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah" and left it desolate. Yet we know this fire went out, because Jerusalem is not burning today.
Doesn't Matthew 25:46 say the wicked will receive "everlasting punishment"?
Notice the word is punishment, not punishing. Punishing would be continuous, while punishment is one act. The punishment of the wicked is death, and this death is everlasting.
Can you explain Matthew 10:28: "Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul"?
The word "soul" has three meanings in the Bible: (1) a living being - Genesis 2:7, (2) the mind - Psalm 139:14, and (3) life - 1 Samuel 18:1, which here refers to eternal life that God guarantees all who reach His kingdom. No one can take this away. The last part of Matthew 10:28 says both soul and body will be destroyed in hell.
Matthew 25:41 speaks of "everlasting fire" for the wicked. Does it go out?
Yes, according to the Bible, it does. We must let the Bible explain itself. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed with everlasting, or eternal, fire (Jude 7), and that fire turned them "into ashes" as a warning to "those who afterward would live ungodly" (2 Peter 2:6). These cities are not burning today. The fire went out after everything was burned up. Likewise, everlasting fire will go out after it has turned the wicked to ashes (Malachi 4:3). The effects of the fire are everlasting, but not the burning itself.
Doesn't the story of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31 teach an eternal hell of torment?
No, indeed! It is simply a parable used to emphasize a point. Many facts make it clear that this is a parable. A few are as follows:
-Abraham's bosom is not heaven (Hebrews 11:8-10, 16).
-People in hell can't talk to those in heaven (Isaiah 65:17).
-The dead are in their graves (Job 17:13 ; John 5:28, 29). The rich man was in bodily form with eyes, a tongue, etc., yet we know that the body does not go to hell at death. It is very obvious that the body remains in the grave, as the Bible says.
-Men are rewarded at Christ's second coming, not at death (Revelation 22:11, 12).
-The lost are punished in hell at the end of the world, not when they die (Matthew 13:40-42).
The point of the story is found in verse 31 of Luke 16. Parables cannot be taken literally. If we took parables literally, then we must believe that trees talk! (See this parable in Judges 9:8-15.)
But the Bible speaks of the wicked being tormented "forever," doesn't it?
The term "for ever," as used in the Bible, means simply a period of time, limited or unlimited. It is used 56 times in the Bible in connection with things that have already ended. (To check in a concordance, look up the word "ever.") It is like the word "tall," which means something different in describing men, trees, or mountains. In Jonah 2:6, "forever" means "three days and nights." (See also Jonah 1:17.) In Deuteronomy 23:3, this means "10 generations." In the case of man, this means "as long as he lives" or "until death." (See 1 Samuel 1:22, 28 ; Exodus 21:6 ; Psalm 48:14.) So the wicked will burn in the fire as long as they live, or until death. This fiery punishment for sin will vary according to the degree of sins for each individual, but after the punishment, the fire will go out. The teaching of eternal torment has done more to drive people to atheism and insanity than any other invention of the devil. It is slander upon the loving character of a tender, gracious heavenly Father and has done untold harm to the Christian cause.
I want to again thank Amazing Facts for this Bible study. How wonderful to realize that we don't serve a God who would burn people in hell for the ceaseless ages of eternity! I could never serve such a God. How could anyone who calls themselves Christians be happy in heaven knowing that somewhere in the universe people are being endlessly tormented. Praise God for His mercy! We can surely trust the Lord and His plans!
God bless you and keep you!
Sunday, December 21, 2008
Are the Dead Really Dead? (State of the Dead)
Death just might be one of the most misunderstood subjects today. To many it is shrouded in mystery and evokes dreaded feelings of fear, uncertainty, and even hopelessness. Others believe that their deceased loved ones are not dead at all, but instead live with them or in other realms! Still others are confused about the relationship between the body, spirit, and soul. But does it really matter what you believe? Yes...absolutely! Because what you believe about the dead will have a profound impact on what happens to you in the end-times. There's no room for guessing, so this Study Guide will give you exactly what God says on this subject. Get ready for a real eye-opener!
How did we get here in the first place?
"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being" (Genesis 2:7).
God made us from dust in the beginning.
What happens when a person dies?
"Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:7).
The body returns to dust again, and the spirit goes back to God, who gave it. The spirit of every person who dies - whether righteous or wicked - returns to God at death.
What is the "spirit" that returns to God at death?
"The body without the spirit is dead" (James 2:26). "The spirit of God is in my nostrils" (Job 27:3, KJV).
The spirit that returns to God at death is the breath of life. Nowhere in all of God's book does the "spirit" have any life, wisdom, or feeling after a person dies. It is the "breath of life" and nothing more.
What is a "soul"?
"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul" (Genesis 2:7, KJV).
A soul is a living being. A soul is always a combination of two things: body plus breath. Body (dust) - Breath (spirit) = Death (no soul). A soul cannot exist unless body and breath are combined. God's Word teaches that we are souls.
Do souls die?
"The soul that sinneth, it shall die" (Ezekiel 18:20, KJV). "Every living soul died in the sea" (Revelation 16:3, KJV).
According to God's Word, souls do die! We are souls, and souls die. Man is mortal (Job 4:17). Only God is immortal (1 Timothy 6:15, 16). The concept of an undying, immortal soul goes against the Bible, which teaches that souls are subject to death.
Do good people go to heaven when they die?
"All who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth" (John 5:28,29). "David ... is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day." "For David did not ascend into the heavens" (Acts 2:29, 34). "If I wait, the grave is mine house" (Job 17:13, KJV).
No, people do not go either to heaven or hell at death. they go to their graves to await the resurrection day.
How much does one know or comprehend after death?
"For the living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the sun." "There is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going" (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10). "The dead do not praise the LORD" (Psalm 115:17).
God says that the dead know absolutely nothing!
But can't the dead communicate with the living, and aren't they aware of what the living are doing?
"So man lies down and does not rise. Till the heavens are no more, they will not awake nor be roused from their sleep." "His sons come to honor, and he does not know it; they are brought low, and he does not perceive it" (Job 14:12, 21). "Nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the sun." (Ecclesiastes 9:6).
No, the dead cannot contact the living, nor do they know what the living are doing. They are dead. Their thoughts have perished (Psalm 146:4).
Jesus called the unconscious state of the dead "sleep" in John 11:11-14. How long will they sleep?
"So man lies down and does not rise. Till the heavens are no more" (Job 14:12). "The day of the Lord will come ... in which the heavens will pass away" (2 Peter 3:10).
The dead will sleep until the great day of the Lord at the end of the world. In death humans are totally unconscious with no activity or knowledge of any kind.
What happens to the righteous dead at the second coming of Christ?
"And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work" (Revelation 22:12). "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, ... And the dead in Christ will rise ... And thus we shall always be with the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17). "We shall all be changed - in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, ... and the dead will be raised incorruptible. ... For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality" (1 Corinthians 15:51-53).
They will be rewarded. They will be raised, given immortal bodies, and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. There would be no purpose in a resurrection if people were taken to heaven at death.
What was the devils' first lie on Earth?
"Then the serpent said to the woman, 'You will not surely die'" (Genesis 3:4). "That serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan" (Revelation 12:9).
You will not die.
Why did the devil lie to Eve about death? Could this subject be more important than many think?
It is one of the pillars of the devil's teachings. He has worked powerful miracles down through the ages through people who claim to receive their power from the spirits of the dead. (Examples: Magicians of Egypt - Exodus 7:11 ; Woman of Endor - 1 Samuel 28:3-25 ; Sorcerers - Daniel 2:2 ; A certain slave girl - Acts 16:16-18.)
A Solemn Warning
In the end-time Satan will again use sorcery - as he did in Daniel's day - to deceive the world (Revelation 18:23). Sorcery is a supernatural agency that claims to receive its power and wisdom from the spirits of the dead.
Posing as Jesus' Disciples
Posing as godly loved ones who have died, saintly clergymen who are now dead, Bible prophets, or even the apostles or disciples of Christ (2 Corinthians 11:13), Satan and his angels will deceive billions. Those who believe the dead are alive, in any form, will most assuredly be deceived.
Do devils really work miracles?
"For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles" (Revelation 16:14, KJV). "For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect" (Matthew 24:24).
Yes, indeed! Devils work incredibly convincing miracles (Revelation 13:13, 14). Satan and his angels will appear as angels of light (2 Corinthians 11:14) and, even more shocking, as Christ Himself (Matthew 24:23, 24). The universal feeling will be that Christ and His angels are leading out in a fantastic worldwide revival. The entire emphasis will seem so spiritual and so super-natural that only God's elect will not be deceived.
Why will God's people not be deceived?
"They received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so" (Acts 17:11). "If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." (Isaiah 8:20).
God's people will know from their earnest study of His book that the dead are dead, not alive. Spirits of the dead do not exist. Therefore, God's people will reject all miracle workers and teachers who claim to receive special "light" or work miracles by contacting the spirits of the dead. And God's people will likewise reject as dangerous and false all teachings that claim the dead are alive in any form, anywhere.
Back in Moses' day, what did God command should be done to people who taught that the dead were alive?
"A man or a woman who is a medium, or who has familiar spirits, shall surely be put to death; they shall stone them with stones" (Leviticus 20:27).
God insisted that mediums and others with "familiar spirits" (who claimed to be able to contact the dead) should be stoned to death. This shows how God regards the false teaching that the dead are alive.
Will the righteous people who are raised in the resurrection ever die again?
"But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, ... nor can they die anymore" (Luke 20:35, 36). "And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away" (Revelation 21:4).
No! Death, sorrow, crying, and tragedy will never enter into God's new kingdom. "So when this corruptible has put in incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: 'Death is swallowed up in victory'" (1 Corinthians 15:54).
Belief in reincarnation is expanding rapidly today. Is this teaching biblical?
"For the living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing. ... Nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the sun" (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6).
Almost half the people on earth believe in reincarnation - a teaching that the soul never dies but is instead continually reborn in a different kind of body with each succeeding generation. This teaching, however, is contrary to Scripture.
The Bible Says
After death a person: returns to dust (Psalm 104:29), knows nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5), possesses no mental powers (Psalm 146:4), has nothing to do with anything on earth (Ecclesiastes 9:6), does not live (2 Kings 20:1), waits in the grave (Job 17:13), and continues not (Job 14:1, 2).
Satan's Invention
We learned in questions 11 and 12 that Satan invented the teaching that the dead are alive. Reincarnation, channeling, communication with spirits, spirit worship, and the "undying soul" are all inventions of Satan, with one aim - to convince people that when you die you are not really dead. When people believe that the dead are alive, "spirits of devils, working miracles" (Revelation 16:14) and posing as spirits of the dead will be able to deceive and lead them astray virtually 100 percent of the time (Matthew 24:24).
Didn't the thief on the cross go to paradise with Christ the day He died?
No. In fact, on Sunday morning Jesus said to Mary, "I have not yet ascended to My Father" (John 20:17). This shows that Christ did not go to heaven at death. Also note that the punctuation of the Bible is not inspired, but was added by men. The comma in Luke 23:43 should be placed after the word "today" rather than before, so the passage should read, "Assuredly I say to you today, you will be with Me in paradise." Or, "I'm telling you today - when it seems that I can save no one, when I myself am being crucified as a criminal - I give you the assurance today that you will be with me in paradise." Christ's kingdom is set up at His second coming (Matthew 25:31), and all the righteous of all ages will enter it at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) and not at death.
Doesn't the Bible speak of the "undying," "immortal" soul?
No, the undying, immortal soul is not mentioned in the Bible. The word "immortal" is found only once in the Bible, and it is in reference to God (1 Timothy 1:17).
At death the body returns to dust and the spirit (or breath) returns to God. But where does the soul go?
It goes nowhere. Instead, it simply ceases to exist. Two things must be combined to make a soul: body and breath. When the breath departs, the soul ceases to exist because it is a combination of two things. When you turn off a light, where does the light go? It doesn't go anywhere. It just ceases to exist. Two things must combine to make light: a bulb and electricity. Without the combination, a light is impossible. So with the soul; unless body and breath are combined, there can be no soul. There is no such thing as a disembodied soul.
Does the word "soul" ever mean anything other than a living being?
Yes, it may mean also (1) life itself, or (2) the mind, or intellect. No matter which meaning is intended, the soul is still a combination of two things (body and breath), and it ceases to exist at death.
Can you explain John 11:26, which says, "whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die"?
This refers not to the first death, which all people die (Hebrews 9:27), but to the second death, which only the wicked die and from which there is no resurrection (Revelation 2:11 ; 21:8).
Matthew 10:28 says, "Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul." Doesn't this prove that the soul is undying?
No, it proves the opposite. The last half of the same verse proves that souls do die. It says, "but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" The word "soul" here means life and refers to eternal life, which is a gift (Romans 6:23) that will be given to the righteous at the last day (John 6:54). No one can take away eternal life that God bestows. (See also Luke 12:4, 5.)
Doesn't 1 Peter 4:6 say the gospel was preached to dead people?
No, it says the gospel "was" preached to those who "are" dead. They are dead now, but the gospel "was" preached to them while they were yet living.
What about the souls crying out from under the altar in Revelation 6:9, 10? Doesn't this show that souls do not die?
No. This cry was figurative, as was the cry of Abel's blood (Genesis 4:10). The word "soul" here means people (or living beings) who had been slain for their faith. Surely no one believes that souls who die literally lie under the altar, nor do people believe that the righteous beg God to punish their enemies. Rather, the righteous beg for mercy for their enemies, as Christ did on the cross (Luke 23:34).
Doesn't the Bible say Christ went and preached to lost souls in hell between His crucifixion and resurrection?
No, the Bible passage in question is 1 Peter 3:18-20. The preaching was done "by the Spirit" (verse 18) in Noah's day - to people who were then living (verses 19, 20). The "spirits in prison" refers to people whose lives were in bondage to Satan. (See Psalm 142:7 ; Isaiah 42:6, 7 ; 61:1 ; Luke 4:18.)
Again thanks to Amazing Facts for this Bible study.
Friends, these are just a fraction of the verses in the Bible about what happens when we die. I implore you to do your own study. All you need is an exaustive concordance (e.g. Strong's concordance, available at any Christian bookstore) and a Bible. Study the words "death", "dead", and especially "sleep". Praise God for your decision to follow God's Word instead of man's traditions.
I hope my sore hands after typing these long studies is worth it, and it certainly is if even one person learns what the Bible says about death.
God bless you and keep you!
How did we get here in the first place?
"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being" (Genesis 2:7).
God made us from dust in the beginning.
What happens when a person dies?
"Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:7).
The body returns to dust again, and the spirit goes back to God, who gave it. The spirit of every person who dies - whether righteous or wicked - returns to God at death.
What is the "spirit" that returns to God at death?
"The body without the spirit is dead" (James 2:26). "The spirit of God is in my nostrils" (Job 27:3, KJV).
The spirit that returns to God at death is the breath of life. Nowhere in all of God's book does the "spirit" have any life, wisdom, or feeling after a person dies. It is the "breath of life" and nothing more.
What is a "soul"?
"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul" (Genesis 2:7, KJV).
A soul is a living being. A soul is always a combination of two things: body plus breath. Body (dust) - Breath (spirit) = Death (no soul). A soul cannot exist unless body and breath are combined. God's Word teaches that we are souls.
Do souls die?
"The soul that sinneth, it shall die" (Ezekiel 18:20, KJV). "Every living soul died in the sea" (Revelation 16:3, KJV).
According to God's Word, souls do die! We are souls, and souls die. Man is mortal (Job 4:17). Only God is immortal (1 Timothy 6:15, 16). The concept of an undying, immortal soul goes against the Bible, which teaches that souls are subject to death.
Do good people go to heaven when they die?
"All who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth" (John 5:28,29). "David ... is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day." "For David did not ascend into the heavens" (Acts 2:29, 34). "If I wait, the grave is mine house" (Job 17:13, KJV).
No, people do not go either to heaven or hell at death. they go to their graves to await the resurrection day.
How much does one know or comprehend after death?
"For the living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the sun." "There is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going" (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10). "The dead do not praise the LORD" (Psalm 115:17).
God says that the dead know absolutely nothing!
But can't the dead communicate with the living, and aren't they aware of what the living are doing?
"So man lies down and does not rise. Till the heavens are no more, they will not awake nor be roused from their sleep." "His sons come to honor, and he does not know it; they are brought low, and he does not perceive it" (Job 14:12, 21). "Nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the sun." (Ecclesiastes 9:6).
No, the dead cannot contact the living, nor do they know what the living are doing. They are dead. Their thoughts have perished (Psalm 146:4).
Jesus called the unconscious state of the dead "sleep" in John 11:11-14. How long will they sleep?
"So man lies down and does not rise. Till the heavens are no more" (Job 14:12). "The day of the Lord will come ... in which the heavens will pass away" (2 Peter 3:10).
The dead will sleep until the great day of the Lord at the end of the world. In death humans are totally unconscious with no activity or knowledge of any kind.
What happens to the righteous dead at the second coming of Christ?
"And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work" (Revelation 22:12). "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, ... And the dead in Christ will rise ... And thus we shall always be with the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17). "We shall all be changed - in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, ... and the dead will be raised incorruptible. ... For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality" (1 Corinthians 15:51-53).
They will be rewarded. They will be raised, given immortal bodies, and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. There would be no purpose in a resurrection if people were taken to heaven at death.
What was the devils' first lie on Earth?
"Then the serpent said to the woman, 'You will not surely die'" (Genesis 3:4). "That serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan" (Revelation 12:9).
You will not die.
Why did the devil lie to Eve about death? Could this subject be more important than many think?
It is one of the pillars of the devil's teachings. He has worked powerful miracles down through the ages through people who claim to receive their power from the spirits of the dead. (Examples: Magicians of Egypt - Exodus 7:11 ; Woman of Endor - 1 Samuel 28:3-25 ; Sorcerers - Daniel 2:2 ; A certain slave girl - Acts 16:16-18.)
A Solemn Warning
In the end-time Satan will again use sorcery - as he did in Daniel's day - to deceive the world (Revelation 18:23). Sorcery is a supernatural agency that claims to receive its power and wisdom from the spirits of the dead.
Posing as Jesus' Disciples
Posing as godly loved ones who have died, saintly clergymen who are now dead, Bible prophets, or even the apostles or disciples of Christ (2 Corinthians 11:13), Satan and his angels will deceive billions. Those who believe the dead are alive, in any form, will most assuredly be deceived.
Do devils really work miracles?
"For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles" (Revelation 16:14, KJV). "For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect" (Matthew 24:24).
Yes, indeed! Devils work incredibly convincing miracles (Revelation 13:13, 14). Satan and his angels will appear as angels of light (2 Corinthians 11:14) and, even more shocking, as Christ Himself (Matthew 24:23, 24). The universal feeling will be that Christ and His angels are leading out in a fantastic worldwide revival. The entire emphasis will seem so spiritual and so super-natural that only God's elect will not be deceived.
Why will God's people not be deceived?
"They received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so" (Acts 17:11). "If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." (Isaiah 8:20).
God's people will know from their earnest study of His book that the dead are dead, not alive. Spirits of the dead do not exist. Therefore, God's people will reject all miracle workers and teachers who claim to receive special "light" or work miracles by contacting the spirits of the dead. And God's people will likewise reject as dangerous and false all teachings that claim the dead are alive in any form, anywhere.
Back in Moses' day, what did God command should be done to people who taught that the dead were alive?
"A man or a woman who is a medium, or who has familiar spirits, shall surely be put to death; they shall stone them with stones" (Leviticus 20:27).
God insisted that mediums and others with "familiar spirits" (who claimed to be able to contact the dead) should be stoned to death. This shows how God regards the false teaching that the dead are alive.
Will the righteous people who are raised in the resurrection ever die again?
"But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, ... nor can they die anymore" (Luke 20:35, 36). "And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away" (Revelation 21:4).
No! Death, sorrow, crying, and tragedy will never enter into God's new kingdom. "So when this corruptible has put in incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: 'Death is swallowed up in victory'" (1 Corinthians 15:54).
Belief in reincarnation is expanding rapidly today. Is this teaching biblical?
"For the living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing. ... Nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the sun" (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6).
Almost half the people on earth believe in reincarnation - a teaching that the soul never dies but is instead continually reborn in a different kind of body with each succeeding generation. This teaching, however, is contrary to Scripture.
The Bible Says
After death a person: returns to dust (Psalm 104:29), knows nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5), possesses no mental powers (Psalm 146:4), has nothing to do with anything on earth (Ecclesiastes 9:6), does not live (2 Kings 20:1), waits in the grave (Job 17:13), and continues not (Job 14:1, 2).
Satan's Invention
We learned in questions 11 and 12 that Satan invented the teaching that the dead are alive. Reincarnation, channeling, communication with spirits, spirit worship, and the "undying soul" are all inventions of Satan, with one aim - to convince people that when you die you are not really dead. When people believe that the dead are alive, "spirits of devils, working miracles" (Revelation 16:14) and posing as spirits of the dead will be able to deceive and lead them astray virtually 100 percent of the time (Matthew 24:24).
Didn't the thief on the cross go to paradise with Christ the day He died?
No. In fact, on Sunday morning Jesus said to Mary, "I have not yet ascended to My Father" (John 20:17). This shows that Christ did not go to heaven at death. Also note that the punctuation of the Bible is not inspired, but was added by men. The comma in Luke 23:43 should be placed after the word "today" rather than before, so the passage should read, "Assuredly I say to you today, you will be with Me in paradise." Or, "I'm telling you today - when it seems that I can save no one, when I myself am being crucified as a criminal - I give you the assurance today that you will be with me in paradise." Christ's kingdom is set up at His second coming (Matthew 25:31), and all the righteous of all ages will enter it at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) and not at death.
Doesn't the Bible speak of the "undying," "immortal" soul?
No, the undying, immortal soul is not mentioned in the Bible. The word "immortal" is found only once in the Bible, and it is in reference to God (1 Timothy 1:17).
At death the body returns to dust and the spirit (or breath) returns to God. But where does the soul go?
It goes nowhere. Instead, it simply ceases to exist. Two things must be combined to make a soul: body and breath. When the breath departs, the soul ceases to exist because it is a combination of two things. When you turn off a light, where does the light go? It doesn't go anywhere. It just ceases to exist. Two things must combine to make light: a bulb and electricity. Without the combination, a light is impossible. So with the soul; unless body and breath are combined, there can be no soul. There is no such thing as a disembodied soul.
Does the word "soul" ever mean anything other than a living being?
Yes, it may mean also (1) life itself, or (2) the mind, or intellect. No matter which meaning is intended, the soul is still a combination of two things (body and breath), and it ceases to exist at death.
Can you explain John 11:26, which says, "whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die"?
This refers not to the first death, which all people die (Hebrews 9:27), but to the second death, which only the wicked die and from which there is no resurrection (Revelation 2:11 ; 21:8).
Matthew 10:28 says, "Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul." Doesn't this prove that the soul is undying?
No, it proves the opposite. The last half of the same verse proves that souls do die. It says, "but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" The word "soul" here means life and refers to eternal life, which is a gift (Romans 6:23) that will be given to the righteous at the last day (John 6:54). No one can take away eternal life that God bestows. (See also Luke 12:4, 5.)
Doesn't 1 Peter 4:6 say the gospel was preached to dead people?
No, it says the gospel "was" preached to those who "are" dead. They are dead now, but the gospel "was" preached to them while they were yet living.
What about the souls crying out from under the altar in Revelation 6:9, 10? Doesn't this show that souls do not die?
No. This cry was figurative, as was the cry of Abel's blood (Genesis 4:10). The word "soul" here means people (or living beings) who had been slain for their faith. Surely no one believes that souls who die literally lie under the altar, nor do people believe that the righteous beg God to punish their enemies. Rather, the righteous beg for mercy for their enemies, as Christ did on the cross (Luke 23:34).
Doesn't the Bible say Christ went and preached to lost souls in hell between His crucifixion and resurrection?
No, the Bible passage in question is 1 Peter 3:18-20. The preaching was done "by the Spirit" (verse 18) in Noah's day - to people who were then living (verses 19, 20). The "spirits in prison" refers to people whose lives were in bondage to Satan. (See Psalm 142:7 ; Isaiah 42:6, 7 ; 61:1 ; Luke 4:18.)
Again thanks to Amazing Facts for this Bible study.
Friends, these are just a fraction of the verses in the Bible about what happens when we die. I implore you to do your own study. All you need is an exaustive concordance (e.g. Strong's concordance, available at any Christian bookstore) and a Bible. Study the words "death", "dead", and especially "sleep". Praise God for your decision to follow God's Word instead of man's traditions.
I hope my sore hands after typing these long studies is worth it, and it certainly is if even one person learns what the Bible says about death.
God bless you and keep you!
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